He told the truth about CIA torture—and went to prison. Hear John Kiriakou explain why “official channels” failed, how secrecy is weaponized, and what blowback really looks like. Listen/Watch now and tell us: should the CIA even exist?

If the guardrails are the problem, where do you turn for the truth? We sit down with former CIA officer and author John Kiriakou to unpack the hard facts behind the United States’ post‑9/11 torture program, why rapport-based interrogation outperforms coercion, and how “official channels” can fail when every node in the chain is compromised. John walks us through his 56 hours with Abu Zubaydah, the FBI’s proven interrogation playbook, and the moment the Bureau was pushed aside so contractors could introduce learned helplessness and unapproved techniques.

From there, the story accelerates: an on‑air admission that torture was official policy, a crimes report, and years of surveillance culminating in Espionage Act charges. John breaks down how classification is weaponized to bury wrongdoing, how contractors without interrogation experience made millions, and why more whistleblowers were charged under modern administrations than in the previous nine decades combined. He also shares the lifeline he found in a network of truth-tellers—Tom Drake, Bill Binney, Daniel Ellsberg—who helped him withstand pressure designed to bankrupt and silence him.

We widen the lens to blowback: the rise of Al‑Qaeda and ISIS, CIA‑backed “Zero Units” in Afghanistan, and a chilling account of the Dasht‑i‑Leili massacre investigation that was smothered by politics and secrecy. John makes a provocative case that the U.S. intelligence community’s core functions already exist across DIA, NSA, DARPA, and State’s INR—and asks whether a sprawling CIA still makes Americans safer or merely multiplies risk, cost, and impunity. This is a candid, deeply informed look at torture, oversight, whistleblowing, and the real consequences of secrecy on national security.

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0:00 Opening And Guest Introduction

2:19 Capturing Abu Zubaydah And Rapport Methods

5:33 FBI Interrogations Vs CIA Torture

9:23 Reading Torture Cables And Internal Dissent

12:31 Why “Official Channels” Failed

16:07 Going Public With ABC And Fallout

19:32 Mitchell And Jessen And Learned Helplessness

24:08 Guantánamo, Mislabels, And Noncharges

26:47 Obama Era Reopening And Surveillance

32:18 Entrapment Attempt And Espionage Charges

38:00 Why The Obama White House Targeted Whistleblowers

42:28 The Whistleblower Community And Support

47:11 Secrecy Agreements And Classification Games

53:21 Dasht-i-Leili Massacre Probe Shut Down

Our theme music, Adventures In Jazz, was used with permission. Composed and performed by Bob Mamet.